tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5394137.post2423044672683091186..comments2023-11-05T06:49:09.637-06:00Comments on Twins Geek: Three Final Points about Race Biases in BaseballJohnhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13907268840665045299noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5394137.post-24204230059655618432010-04-18T14:19:56.726-05:002010-04-18T14:19:56.726-05:00Dye is unemployed b/c he had a horrible second hal...Dye is unemployed b/c he had a horrible second half and has a very poor understanding of what he's worth. He could have a job if he was willing to take 2 or 3M, but he wants 12, and he won't get it. This isn't racism, this is unrealistic expectations.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5394137.post-17292736311442923622010-04-17T21:30:28.944-05:002010-04-17T21:30:28.944-05:00I am going to make comments right now that some fo...I am going to make comments right now that some folks might consider racist. I appologize if it is offensive. I am a white mid twenties male from the Twin Cities and realize that my life experiences don't necessarily make me an expert. This is just my opinion even though I state it like a fact. This opinion developed from personal experience and logic through my twenties as a student and Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5394137.post-23948740461528900102010-04-16T23:03:49.316-05:002010-04-16T23:03:49.316-05:00You know a couple of things that still haven't...You know a couple of things that still haven't been mentioned:<br /><br /> * Abreau got the contract in part because he has set a good example for the team. The Angels followed Bobby's lead to take pitches and become more discplined hitters.<br /><br /> * Val wasn't the only high price OF that the Angels got rid of. They also got rid of Gary Matthews Jr. who last time I looked waswalter hansonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5394137.post-18555823230197616912010-04-16T20:22:23.132-05:002010-04-16T20:22:23.132-05:00TT wrote: "I suspect that 10% includes any La...TT wrote: "I suspect that 10% includes any Latin players who are black."<br /><br />It does not. Caribbean players are classified as Hispanic by the University of Central Florida's Institute for Diversity and Ethics in Sports, which is where these numbers come from. So, the aforementioned Guerrero, for example is not considered black by their standards.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5394137.post-11268435349674925722010-04-16T18:24:52.625-05:002010-04-16T18:24:52.625-05:00I want to recommend a couple links because, again,...I want to recommend a couple links because, again, I think the discussion is interesting and worthwhile. These both come out of the Torii Hunter comments on race last month, but I think the offer some pretty useful perspective on the current topic:<br /><br />Guest post on Joe Posnanski's blog by Adrian Burgos: http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2010/03/12/guest-post-oh-brother-where-are-thou/<greenmachinenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5394137.post-46549118136013863702010-04-16T17:52:08.710-05:002010-04-16T17:52:08.710-05:00The percentage of blacks in the country vs. % in M...The percentage of blacks in the country vs. % in MLB is simplifying things a bit too much, methinks. What would be more helpful is looking at how many black players were in the bigs 10, 20, 30 years ago compared to now. Also, look at the % of players in the NFL, and, of course, the NBA- it does not mirror society at large whatsoever.moopdognoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5394137.post-89471120830552445312010-04-16T17:49:20.832-05:002010-04-16T17:49:20.832-05:00"An argument that GM's preferred Guerrero..."An argument that GM's preferred Guerrero to Dye because of race is definitely garbage. They are the same race. Any kind of subconscious bias would respond equally"<br /><br />OK, so you perceive Guerrero and Dye to be the same race, but that doesn't mean that others necessarily do. Guerrero is a dark skinned latino man from the Dominican. Dye is a dark skinned African-American greenmachinenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5394137.post-86171620956840093722010-04-16T16:57:02.610-05:002010-04-16T16:57:02.610-05:00"But I think it's just as obvious to say ..."But I think it's just as obvious to say that racial preference is a factor"<br /><br />Well, you can think whatever you want. You can think the moon landings were faked or that the sky is purple. There is simply no evidence that race is a factor for MLB front offices. None at all.<br /><br />Speculation without facts is rarely an accurate method of analysis.JWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530976124095073877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5394137.post-52107278086258407402010-04-16T16:40:14.629-05:002010-04-16T16:40:14.629-05:00At the risk of feeding the troll:
"An argume...At the risk of feeding the troll:<br /><br />"An argument that GM's preferred Guerrero to Dye because of race is definitely garbage."<br /><br />Nobody here is making that argument but you, John.<br /><br />TG's question is, what factors influenced the decisions of big-league GMs to offer Dye a smaller contract than other players? Related to this is the obvious follow-up, can weDavid Wintheiserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18026301321724958368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5394137.post-70277114567386945442010-04-16T16:33:39.420-05:002010-04-16T16:33:39.420-05:00Like "Sam Hell" said, why do we have to ...Like "Sam Hell" said, why do we have to complicate seemingly simple issue by over-thinking it?<br /><br />At 35, Jermaine Dye is not very good at baseball, but wants to be paid as if he is. Nobody wants to pay that amount, so he's not playing. It is really that simple people. He's been offered short-term deals and not taken them. End of story.<br /><br /><br /><br />"And Adam Kruegerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12460938738580518447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5394137.post-14127581973160908722010-04-16T16:27:24.865-05:002010-04-16T16:27:24.865-05:00"According to Major League Baseball, 73% of a..."According to Major League Baseball, 73% of all major leaguers are American born. And it's my understanding that 12% of the US population is black. So 12% of that 73% should be black if African-Americans are to be fairly represented by major league baseball players. 12% of 73% is 8.8%.<br /><br />"But according to the stories I read yesterday, 10% of major league rosters are black David Wintheiserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18026301321724958368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5394137.post-28597041206990685162010-04-16T16:18:11.043-05:002010-04-16T16:18:11.043-05:00An argument that GM's preferred Guerrero to Dy...An argument that GM's preferred Guerrero to Dye because of race is definitely garbage. They are the same race. Any kind of subconscious bias would respond equally. Only a conscious bias could differentiate based on place of birth, though it's dubious to think anyone would care.<br /><br />Who here is denying that racism exists? No one. People of all races and ethnicities have biases JWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530976124095073877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5394137.post-90755364074857569092010-04-16T16:06:07.715-05:002010-04-16T16:06:07.715-05:00Nick -
Systematic bias is the logical result of i...Nick -<br /><br />Systematic bias is the logical result of individual bias.<br /><br />"Frankly, I'm tired of hearing about racism"<br /><br />And frankly I am tired of hearing that racism no longer exists. Like holocaust denial, I think it tells you something about the person protesting. The possible existence of that which they deny is deeply threatening.TThttp://grannybaseball.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5394137.post-37544128661746524012010-04-16T15:37:26.405-05:002010-04-16T15:37:26.405-05:00Here's another take on Hudson's comments t...Here's another take on Hudson's comments thank to that Lipgloss babe. Looks like a blogger from the Bitch Sox. http://www.wrongedmanout.blogspot.com/<br /><br />I enjoyed her blog.John Hnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5394137.post-19578343931586739992010-04-16T15:10:02.147-05:002010-04-16T15:10:02.147-05:00Why is it hard to imagine that a GM might have a r...<i>Why is it hard to imagine that a GM might have a racial bias that favors latino players over black players?</i><br /><br />It's not hard to believe that a GM would have that bias. It's hard to believe that such a systematic bias exists across the league, which would seem to be Hudson's implication.Nick N.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00848574337121154690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5394137.post-50745769788362111352010-04-16T15:02:44.342-05:002010-04-16T15:02:44.342-05:00Frankly, I'm tired of hearing about racism eve...Frankly, I'm tired of hearing about racism every time something doesn't go the way a black person wants. Sure there's racism in the world but no where near the degree we hear about. Also, it's mostly middle aged or older people that bring it up. Vlad is probably still a good player but who would want to pay him the money he wants. For instance is he worth 10% of the Twins payroll?John Hnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5394137.post-65236524166206659232010-04-16T14:58:23.549-05:002010-04-16T14:58:23.549-05:00I don't know that anyone has stated a firm con...I don't know that anyone has stated a firm conclusion "blaming racism." The Geek concluded his first part saying "We can’t tell, but I’m personally puzzled why Dye was ultimately valued lower in the market than these other guys. And I don't think it's crazy to think an unconscious race bias could have been a subtle contributing factor." <br /><br />Being "greenmachinenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5394137.post-56897880786597701182010-04-16T12:54:27.077-05:002010-04-16T12:54:27.077-05:00In the rush to blame racism, common sense gets lef...In the rush to blame racism, common sense gets left behind. Recent performance would seem to be a reasonable way to predict an older player's future performance.<br />Post 2009 All-Star break OPS of the example players.<br /><br />Abreu .798<br /><br />Matsui .867 plus WS MVP<br /><br />Guerrero .845<br /><br />Dye .590Sam Hellnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5394137.post-27152796373673452632010-04-16T12:52:23.635-05:002010-04-16T12:52:23.635-05:00"a lot of European immigrants in the US held ..."a lot of European immigrants in the US held racial bias against Irish immigrants"<br /><br />My favorite line is from a journal by a logger in Northern Minnesota. Paraphrasing: "it was odd to be among no one else of my complexion and race. All the others being Swedes." <br /><br />Geek - I suspect that 10% includes any Latin players who are black. The other problem is that TThttp://grannybaseball.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5394137.post-10863648618305816702010-04-16T12:39:13.548-05:002010-04-16T12:39:13.548-05:00So does Twins Geek subscribe to the Torii Hunter t...So does Twins Geek subscribe to the Torii Hunter theory that Vlad Guerrero is not black?<br /><br />This idea of subconscious GM bias is ludicrous. Even the academics TG cites in his previous article don't believe it- they think white players are consciously preferred because it brings in more fans.<br /><br />Twins Geek is the first Twins blog I read, oh so many years ago. But it's JWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530976124095073877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5394137.post-62158313365139773042010-04-16T12:11:13.623-05:002010-04-16T12:11:13.623-05:00"OK, follow my math here…
According to Major..."OK, follow my math here…<br /><br />According to Major League Baseball, 73% of all major leaguers are American born. And it's my understanding that 12% of the US population is black. So 12% of that 73% should be black if African-Americans are to be fairly represented by major league baseball players. 12% of 73% is 8.8%.<br />But according to the stories I read yesterday, 10% of major Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5394137.post-44005734750149579382010-04-16T11:33:09.696-05:002010-04-16T11:33:09.696-05:00"I'm confused, are you saying white GMs a..."I'm confused, are you saying white GMs and front-office people would have a race bias that favored Latinos?"<br /><br />"That's exactly why this argument doesn't float with me."<br /><br />Why is it hard to imagine that a GM might have a racial bias that favors latino players over black players? Race isn't a fixed, absolute concept. Non-white people are greenmachinenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5394137.post-14943877404290200042010-04-16T10:21:14.107-05:002010-04-16T10:21:14.107-05:00I'm confused, are you saying white GMs and fro...<i>I'm confused, are you saying white GMs and front-office people would have a race bias that favored Latinos? Because none of the players you mentioned in your comparison with Dye (Matsui, Abreu, and Guerrero) are white.</i><br /><br />That's exactly why this argument doesn't float with me.Nick N.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00848574337121154690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5394137.post-82576604255235202952010-04-16T08:23:08.505-05:002010-04-16T08:23:08.505-05:00I'm confused, are you saying white GMs and fro...I'm confused, are you saying white GMs and front-office people would have a race bias that favored Latinos? Because none of the players you mentioned in your comparison with Dye (Matsui, Abreu, and Guerrero) are white.<br /><br />Also, only mentioning their production from last year is kind of a light treatment of the differences between these four players. For example, here are the career Adam Kruegerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12460938738580518447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5394137.post-29340817818305070852010-04-16T08:15:38.775-05:002010-04-16T08:15:38.775-05:00So now every race is being valued higher over blac...So now every race is being valued higher over blacks? Not just whites, but Asians and Latinos as well? I also find it interesting that the first GM to say no to Dye was Kenny Williams, who is black. The thing with the comparables is that two of them are left-handed and the Angels signed them to help their right-handed heavy lineup. Their only other left-handed power is switch-hitter Kendry SoCalTwinsfannoreply@blogger.com